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David Kloss (7-25-95) Interviewer (JWB) Joseph Bean JWB: …Back, because I’ll remember, remember, see I’ll remember what I’ve already discovered. And You’ll fill it out. But before we get into all of this IML stuff, can you tell us the story of David Kloss before IML, in 25 words or more? Like you were born somewhere presumably on the earth: Where? S: Born in Philadelphia, 1949, schooled there, then on to North Carolina, then to New York, and then from there on, off to the oil business. JWB: Which was Texas? S: No actually it was international it was up in the… JWB: But where was home? S: Oh, for the oil business? JWB: Yeah… S: I was living in Canada, first, and then on to living in Europe, and then came back to the States, and then back and forth… JWB: There’s oil in Europe? S: Yeah, North Sea, off the Orkney Islands— JWB: North Sea, yeah S: —Yeah, and off of Norway. JWB: And what did you do to the oil business? S: What did I do to the oil business? JWB: For it. With it? S: Well I started out as a common roustabout trainee. JWB: So you were actually on the physical… S: On those working, hard-hat — JWB: Oil gathering … S: —[Small] and for the Village People. Yeah, that’s what I did. I did roustabout, roughneck, derrickman, sub-sea engineer , bargemaster, and through the years moved up to rig mover, to shipyard construction, and then to rig manager, international. JWB: When did you start being in the oil business? S: 1973. JWB: So before IML? S: Yeah… JWB: And you were still doing oil business when we got to ’79 and it was IML? S: Right, actually what I was doing in ’79, I was living in San Francisco, and commuting to Angola, Africa. JWB: Because of the oil? S: Because of the oil, more gulf shore. It was one of the longest commutes in my life. JWB: Right now Africa is going through, of course, the sort of the end of our world because of oil found in the Sudan. S: Ugh hugh… JWB: But I found after I heard this I found an article where someone said there’s oil in the Sudan, in 1944. So, people’ve known for a while! S: Of course it’s there, they just haven’t produced it yet. JWB: Yes yes yes, my dad was a derrick rigger for awhile. S: Really? JWB: In Ventura, yeah… S: I mean he set up the rigs? JWB: Yeah… S; And tore them down then… JWB: Yeah… JWB: No he never took them down. He put them up and basically his line on the taking down was “If they can’t figure that out, then…” S: All the rigs I was were offshore, nothing on land. JWB: Yeah, he was always on land, in a dry hot climate. S: I was everywhere the Arctic, to the jungles of Africa. JWB: So you’ve seen the world? S: Yes. I’ve seen a lot of it. JWB: Wow! Yeah…okay…Well, that’s sort of who you were til IML. S: Right. JWB: Let’s talk about the IML prelude first. S: Okay JWB: Because there had to be some way that…I mean I know there were not contests in most places yet, but there had to be some way that the Brig decided to send you. Who owned the Brig, do you remember? S: Yeah Hank… JWB: It was Hank Diethelm. S: Yes. JWB: The one who ended up getting hanged in his own apartment. S: Right. JWB: Well, we argue about whether it was murder or not. S: Well, I don’t know. JWB: I suspect he said don’t take me down, no matter what I say don’t let up. S: And he carried it too far. S: Well actually I started out— JWB: But anyway Hank was there… S: Yeah.. he was but I actually get introduced to leather in Philadelphia, when I fist came out of course it was a kind of a very suburban existence. We used to go into Philadelphia and at a place there, I can’t remember the name of the club, it was something like the Cellblock, but something similar to that, and I think one of my biggest eye openers was the…. My lover and I’d go in there, and of course he was totally freaked out, but I found that very extreme interest, they would be able to tie people to the walls, whip them and all that. But they also had a sling by the bar… JWB: This wasn’t The Stallion? S: No, it was kind of interesting to walk in and see somebody with a cocktail in their hand talking to somebody while they had a fist up their ass. Cause you used to throw your clothes over the rail above the bar in those days. So it was my kind of introduction until I actually moved out to San Francisco. JWB: I guess you didn’t take your lover with you when you moved? S: No, I didn’t…. Actually I moved out there just to…I was building a rig in Vallejo, so it was oil business. And I just happened to go back into the city, and I ended up that summer in ’77. It was kind of interesting because the first people I met was a guy who was a good friend of Marcus, a guy named David _________, and the first day I met him, Marcus; Allen ________, who opened the Arena; and his lover Mel, that was my fist introduction, and they started taking around the bars, especially the Ambush. JWB: Ambush was the coolest place on the planet. S: Well… JWB: For every minute it existed. S: For somebody who was relatively naïve, I was amazed. I still like recounting the story of walking into this bar, and they’re all talking, and I’m wide-eyed, and it was really fantastic, and they’re sitting there saying: “Well, we’d like to….” You know, whatever. “I need to go to the bathroom—” JWB: You were like nineteen or twenty. S: No actually I was twenty-five. JWB: Twenty-seven S: …twenty-seven at that time JWB: Oh okay. S: Anyway I’d gone back from the bar, walked over there, opened the door to the bathroom, and to this day I still describe it as seeing so many people in such a small place doing so many things, half of which I’d never seen. And so I was amazed… JWB: None of which were dry! S: No! And they were doing everything. There was fisting and fucking and sucking and pissing—everything else going on—so I quietly shut the door, went back there and said “Do you know what they’re doing in there?” They said “Oh, you really got a piss squad against the wall!” And from there it was all uphill! JWB: Yeah…. Ambush ’77. Geoff ______ was there,… S: It was all a big blur… JWB: Richard was there. I was there, but who would have noticed? Yeah, I was actually a little old for the Ambush. S: You were? JWB: Yeah, I was. S: I was all of twenty-seven. JWB: Ambush was very busy being hip. And my hair was down to there, which no one at the Ambush minded, but it had a lot of gray in it already. S: You were considered an older man. JWB: Yeah, yeah, S: In those days I couldn’t tell, I was still, you know, a puppy, so to speak. JWB: I was thirty-one? S: Mmm-hmm JWB: Yeah, so, I was old for the Ambush…for the energy level of the Ambush at that time. So that was sort of like why you got to go around to the bars, and obviously at some point you got around to Hank and the Brig. S: The Brig, right. Well, you see, what was really kind of good: I get concentrated exposure, because, as I said, I was working month-on and month-off. So when I got back for the month, it was like one monster vacation every other month, and I hit every bar I could, at all times. And I go to know quite a few people in every aspect. But generally I always hung around South Market: That’s where all my friends were. JWB: And you were young enough, hot enough, and no doubt interested enough—having spent a month away—that you got dragged into the after-hours parties, and all that stuff, too. So that’s what concentrated would have meant back then. S: Exactly. Of course, you never really thought about it, it was one of those things that was such a natural train to do. It wasn’t like somebody said. “Let’s go do this.” All of a sudden, you were just there and you were doing it. JWB: Yeah! Or with the…. I don’t know, when Hank had it as the Brig. But when it was the No Name, instead of “Last call,” they would shout out “We’re gonna lock the door!” S: [laughter] But I also knew people like Robert ________. He was the gentlemen who used to work for the Drummer, for Drummer magazine. And he ran the Slave Quarters— JWB: He was the Robert who did, like, the advertising, and stuff? S: Yes. Most of the scenes from Drummer Magazine were done in his dungeons. And he ran sort of like a uniform… it wasn’t really a club, it was more of like a … JWB: Appreciation society? S: Right. But I mean, you know, uniforms were incorporated into the other aspect of the dungeon scene. JWB: Do you remember John ______ joke about Robert’s uniform group? John ______ started wearing a Jackie Gleason bus driver uniform to all the parties! A black send…what do you call it…a lunch pail. S. Lunch pail. JWB: Yeah, carried a lunch pail, wore the brown bus driver uniform, and Robert had to let him in because it was a uniform. Well, besides, _____ was his boss. S: Right, so it was kind of hard not to, right! But, you know, with hanging around with them, and also the predominant leather people at the time, it was one of those things that naturally progressed. JWB: Yeah, so was there a process by which you became the representative for the Brig? S: Yeah, I was kind of… JWB: Did it have anything to do with… S: It was very homespun. JWB: Yes… S: In effect, for about five—what was it, about five or eight weeks? I can’t remember, right now—a bunch of weeks, they would have a contest, for a winner for that week to be chosen at the end of this time slot, to become Mr. Leather Brig, or whatever the title was officially. So what they would do is they—in those days, they had a whole bunch of beer crates against the wall, and you’d basically do your thing, and everything was done by audience vote. There was no panel of judges, no anything like that. There was emceeing as far as I know. Could be, it could have been Marcus, and them. But I kind of, you know…scattered the time, so… JWB: I wonder, at the Brig, if Hank might have done that himself? S: He might have. As I said, you know, after 23 years, some of the things faded. But it was kind of fun, because you’d go up there and you’re sittin’ up there. And a lot of these people you knew; I mean, if you hung around there six, seven days a week, because everybody’d go there for happy hour, you know, people drank a lot in those days, and they were always in the bars until whenever. JWB: Yeah, we drank a lot but we spent a lot less time falling over drunk, because .. I don’t know how S: [laughter] It was youth! [laughter] So, I was chosen for one of the weeks. And, as I said, it was totally by audience approval, and then at the end … JWB: was that, like, cheering and noise? S: Major noise, major noise. And they might even have had ballots at one time; I can’t remember: it’s kind of, as I said, hazy. And then at the end of that period, then all of the contestants who had won for the previous weeks were again paraded, went through the whole thing again…. JWB: The bare chest model? S: Yeah, kind of whatever. You know, a little bit of everything. Of course, there was no jockstrap thing, or anything, at that time, I don’t believe. Because everybody wore leather in full most of the time. You went out to the bar, you had your leather boots, you had your leather chaps, had the leather jacket, and your leather hat. Sometimes gloves or whatever, but it was full regalia at all times—most everybody who went in—so you were always in full leather whatever you did. And then that night I was chosen. Of course I had no idea, it was spurred on by Chuck announcing to the leather community that he was having IML, and as in most communities from New York to San Francisco, everybody said, “Well, what’s this mean? What do you want us to do?” So, they just came together… JWB: He wouldn’t have had an answer for you! S: I know! [laughter] So, anyway, everybody just sort of puts up their contest, and some stuff like that. It was a relatively small event, in comparison, with contestants. But that’s how I ended up going. And the Brig paid for me to go and got me signed up and sent me. JWB: They actually paid your bills, huh? S: They paid my bills. JWB: Very cool. ’Cause that’s not true for all of the contestants. S: No, I know! JWB: You were one of the lucky ones! So you came here not knowing—nobody knew—what it was going to be. I know Hank knew Chuck, but you didn’t know anyone here, right? S: I knew nobody in Chicago. I had been in Chicago once because a friend of mine that I worked with in the oil business and went to school with—I went to a federal academy—so he ended up going to school at … what’s the big university especially for business … Northwest? JWB: Northwestern? S: Northwestern. So, I had been in Chicago briefly. That was my only exposure to Chicago up until that time JWB: Well, but if you were anything like me in 1979, all you could think of was “fresh meat” when you were going to another city…so, that was what it was about! S: But, prior to that I wasn’t really “out”, I was kind of struggling with it up until ‘75. JWB: But you didn’t have to worry too much about being a little bit “out” hurting your career or anything at that stage, right? S: Well…not…. Because I worked halfway around the world, nobody— JWB: Yeah, that’s what I mean, they were all over there or over there. They would never hear about what you were doing, over there. S: But you certainly didn’t want to leave any kind of inclination or hints, whatever they might be. JWB: No hints anywhere. S: No hints at all, ’cause it wasn’t the kind of business where you, you know: It’s not like being a lawyer or a banker or whatever kind of relatively white-collar where you could literally push your way through it. You’re slapping on hard hat, boots, getting in the grease and oil and you gotta be tough… JWB: Because if they really don’t want you around, they could make you disappear real easily! S: Very easily, yes they can! JWB Especially in the offshore jobs! S: Yes. “Oops, another casualty.” Sure can. JWB: Oh, well. We’ll have to get a new one of those… S: Right. JWB: Okay. I have questions about the weekend. Actually, I have like four different reports about how many people were contestants, and it ranges from eleven to 14. I’ve settled on twelve because I’m able to attach twelve names to twelve sponsors and because Jack Fritscher says there were twelve. S: There were twelve, and I was number 12. JWB: You were number 12. Okay, I knew you were number 12, because I have a picture of you with your “12” on S: They’d give you a little ribbon… JWB: Well, you know why they did that, don’t you? Because Chuck and Dom were doing the amateur athletic physique contest, so they did everything they could to do it just the way those went because those went well. And a lot of traces of that are still built into IML, and have now been fed back out to the rest of the world. S: I think the idea of physique…. Like, right now you have your “physique” and your “leather wear” and all those different things, but in those days it was “bathing suit.” You were supposed to come out in a bathing suit JWB: Yes. Did you? S: Yes, I did what I was supposed to. Nobody had any concept of “contest” in those days. I mean, the only contest you ever knew about those things were like “Miss America” or something like that. JWB: As a matter of fact, most of the press coverage of IML mentioned “Miss America” somewhere in the article. To help their readers get an idea of what had just happened! Okay, so we’re settled there were twelve contestants. I know also that there was supposed to be a cut to five, but there was really a cut to six. Harry Shattuck says that’s because he tied for fifth with someone else. He thought it was you. S: Could have been, I don’t remember. JWB: Well, the way the judging worked then, of course, all the judging up to the cut didn’t count anymore after the cut. I don’t know how long it stayed that way, but everybody who made the cut started over at zero. So, I mean you wouldn’t have known that as a contestant, but … S: No, we had no concept of the rules: “Be here; do this; do that” and then, whatever. JWB: Well, can you remember (‘cause no one else can) what did you have to do to make the cut? Was that about … ? S: You know, it’s funny: There was basically only three elements that I can remember. Okay: One was actually your leather look … JWB: And that was early; that’s before the cut, then? S: Right. And the other one of course was the swimsuit, so to speak, so they could see what you had underneath your leather. And then again, there was a speech: It was like a two-minute speech, and I can’t remember whether they gave you a topic or they just asked you to really give your concept. JWB: Do you remember anything you said? S: I have no idea. JWB: Do you remember anything anyone said? S: No! It was totally impromptu: You’re standing there in front of this audience full of men—and to me it looked like a big audience; because, I mean, it was the Grand Ballroom at the Radisson Hotel. JWB: Well, it was 330 people, approximately. S: I had no idea; it looked like a lot more. When you’re standing up on the stage for the first time in your life and there’s a runway right down, and you had to go out there and you smile at the crowd. JWB: A runway under a crystal chandelier! S: [laughter] Yeah, I know! It was kind of like this really surrealistic picture, you know: Everybody’s in leather, and all this kind of stuff, and this grand ballroom and you’re going down the runway (laughter). So I just remember whatever I said must have been very pleasing because I do remember a very good response, and I just felt very good about it at the time. Just walked down there and smiled at the crowd, and the rest was history. JWB: Yeah, I think the contest itself went pretty fast once it started. I have various reports about how late it started, but I know it started quite late. One of the stories I heard, and this will be interesting because the person who told me this story could easily have been mistaken; it could’ve happened as late as ’83 and it would still have been the same story. He claims that when things were late starting, he went looking to try to find something for the contestants to drink because you guys were all trapped backstage? S: Right. JWB: And he found a case of beer and dragged it into the middle of the room and when he came back right after the cut thinking he would get a beer for himself, it was all gone! So on average they’d put away four beers because it was a cubic case, so that was 48 beers dumped in the middle of the room. S: Some drank more than others, of course. That must’ve been the other people! But four beers was nothing to drink, in those days. JWB: Well, depending how late! But it’s interesting; how much of a delay must this have been?! S: As far as I remember, it was quite a delay. But, of course, your sort of sitting in this…. You know, I had nothing to judge it, to compare it with, so you just sort of go with the flow. They say, “Be here, do this,” and you’re nervous, and you’re talking to people and you’re interacting with them. But at the same time you don’t know because you’re competing with them. But I think a lot of the people there, we had a lot of camaraderie. There were a few people that were definitely “I’m here to win, good luck to you” and all that kinda stuff; but I think a lot of us were really, you know: “We’re here, if we win, fine; we don’t even know what this is about. Let’s just enjoy it!” JWB: Well, you know, Durk arrived having been told that he was going to win. S: I knew that after … JWB: Dom told him that, he said: “Okay, would you enter the contest if I told you, ‘You’re going to win no matter who else enters’?” S: Right. I heard afterwards, I had no concept of that before. JWB: I don’t know why he was so eager to get, why Dom was so eager to get Durk in the contest. S: Well, you know, the whole IML Contest … JWB: I knew him then and he wasn’t yet “Durk”, that’s the weird thing: I think that weekend was the first time he was “Durk Dehner” Because I asked him recently: “Why did you enter the contest as ‘Durk Dehner?’” Because I met him, like, three months before and his name was still Jonathan, and when I saw him the next year he was still Jonathan to all the people at the bar around him, but there was “Durk Dehner” who was in the IML Contest. And he said: “Oh, we just made up this kind of family there, in southern California. Everybody changed their name to Dehner and then tried to find a “D” to put in front of it: Dick, Don, Durk. His lover Steve, who entered in ’80 or ’81—whenever—entered as “Steve Dehner” by accident; he was supposed to be “Dick Dehner.” S: [laughter] Well, that was L.A., whaddaya want!” JWB: Yeah, right. So … S: But you know, the reason why, you realize that the first poster was actually based … JWB: Yeah, it’s a drawing of Durk. S: … on Durk Dehner, before the contest ever began. So I mean, obviously Etienne knew him quite well. JWB: You do know that most contests before IML were…you know how they were judged, right? There were no panels of judges. The first IML is the first panel of judges. You know the one system, which is how noisy the crowd gets from looking at you, which largely has to do with how many pairs of socks you use. But the other system, which I was more familiar with, was the bar manager would wander through the bar, and he already knows who the contestants are, and where they’re from. So, it’d go like, at the New York Eagle, you’d say, “Where’re you from? Where’re you from?” and, like, once I was in the New York Eagle when they’re having their contest and I said “I’m from California,” and he said, “Will you be a judge?” “Sure.” “Do you know…” and he would name the people who were the contestants. “No, I never heard of them.” “Okay, you’re a judge.” And then, that was it. So then he would say” “You’ll hear when you need to do something.” The whole thing goes, I’m watching, nothings happening, no one’s asking me to do anything. At the end it says, “Okay, will all the anonymous judges please make your way to the bar and tell the bartender at the south end of the bar who you think the winner is.” And that bartender collected our one name from each anonymous judge, turned them in, and that was the whole judging of the contest. S: Hey, it was the early days. [laughter] JWB: It was simple. S: Well, somebody had to make something up to do it. JWB: Yeah, that was, I guess, Lou Thomas made that one up, or Jack Modica (?), either Lou or Jack had to make that one up. But then I ran into it all over the country: L.A., every place. [It] was a cool system, ’cause no one could bribe a judge if you didn’t know who the judges were. S: Exactly. JWB: And the system worked. The panel of judges, of course, was another thing that came out of the Amateur Athletic League. S: Right, and that was a later situation. JWB: Yeah, what can you say? Do you remember any of the other contestants besides…. I mean, everybody remembers Durk, for various reasons. Largely we remember him because we got to know him better and better after, and so there was that. What about the other contestants? S: Unfortunately, my mind is kind of a sieve these days, but I remember the gentleman from Racine, because he and I kept in contact. JWB: Racine…? S: Yeah, Racine, Wisconsin. Uhm, he and I ran into each other for a couple of years. He’s since passed away, of course. And there was the other one that came in as third runner-up, the guy from Louisiana … JWB: Jesse. S: … Jesse; I ran into people that knew him and actually ran into a number of times in Louisiana. Other than that … JWB: So it was little and accidental, at best. S: Right, right. Well, you’ve got twelve contestants coming from scattered places, and that was about it. In fact, I never really ran into Durk after that. JWB: Really? S: I never went to L.A.. JWB: Shut your ears: Lucky you! ’Cause the next few years were not a good time to know Durk! S: That was one of those things in San Francisco: San Franciscans didn’t go to L.A.. JWB: No, people in L.A.—I lived in L.A. then, officially; I lived in San Francisco but my job was in L.A.—a lot of people from L.A. went to San Francisco, but I made a very very very particular point of never accidentally sucking someone from L.A., ’cause they’re slime! I lived with them all the time! [laughter] I wanted real men, with San Francisco flavor! [laughter] S: Well, L.A. has always had sort of a reputation of having sort of an overview of themselves which may not necessarily conform to reality. Is that politically correct? JWB: Close enough. I’ll put the spice back in it if we use it! Um, you didn’t even know, I bet, that the people in your audience paid $25 to be there, right? S: No, I had no concept. JWB: There was a huge, huge outcry about people having to pay $25, it was like too, so way over the top, too much money to have to pay. S: Except $25 in ’79 was a lot of money. JWB: Yeah, you could still go to Broadway shows for under $10. S: Right. JWB: … and here’s a leather contest: $25. S: You could still get rent for $300 in San Francisco. JWB: So what became of the motorcycle you won? Since, if you were in California and it was here … S: Actually… they shipped it out to me. JWB: They did? S: Yes. So I ran it all over the town, had the greatest time riding that thing, ’cause when, my off-times I’d ride it all day long, the evening, visit all kinds of wonderful places, and have fantasy trips with it. Was quite my mark in those days, ran with people that had motorcycles. JWB: Did you think at all about being “International Mr. Leather” say, after 10 days? Did the thought ever cross your mind? S: Yeah, well it did, because San Francisco was very happy about it, I used to do … I mean, in those days there wasn’t like, no big causes to get into, there was no … we were just, the whole thing was the celebration of life. You know, fuck your brains out, have a really good time, dance ‘til the night’s gone, you know? So the whole thing was, he was the most fun and wins, so I would do things like guest spots at Black and Blue, or the Brig, the bars in there. And all the tips would go to charity, like “Meals on Wheels,” or something of the equivalent in those days. JWB: The only leather charity there was, was Interclub Fund, that’s it, that’s the complete list. S: Right, so it was like, but they had seventeen motorcycle clubs but no charities and stuff, so I had a good time and I knew a lot of people. I mean, you don’t spend that much time in bars and … JWB: Were you in any other clubs? S: No, I didn’t enter one. JWB: You didn’t need to be, you were having fun without it! S: Right, exactly! I mean, it was easy, just “Next! Next! Next!” But other than that, well, what do you do with your International Mr. Leather, so what? There’s no “international” really, in it. Most people have no concept of the leather title, leather was so small within itself. JWB: Besides, the concept of titles is way, I mean it’s way new. S: Other than the imperial court. There were a few leather titles around, here and there, “the most popular guy at the bar,” or something like that, but … so there was no … format. JWB: But I remember sometimes, at the Powerhouse, even later—so we’re talking the ‘80s—which is The Brig after it was the No Name and all that, um, they would have a Mr. Powerhouse contest whenever they needed to pump up the … S: Revenue! JWB: Revenue! Exactly! I was going to attendance, but we both know what attendance is. And it might happen three times in a year, but it’s no big deal, ‘cause he’d Mr. Powerhouse that Saturday night. S: Exactly! (laughter) Free drinks for a week and then you’re gone. JWB: Usually the main prize was a bar tab, and all they did was tell the bartender, “He’s the winner.” S: “He drinks free.” JWB: Yeah, “He drinks free.” And when the bartender changed—which was gonna be soon—your free drinks were over! S: So you better drink quick! JWB: But San Francisco let it be something for you. S: Yes, it was, I mean for my own community, because my community was San Francisco. I mean, I really went between all the different bars and most people did. I mean everyone had a favorite one, and we basically hung with a few friends … JWB: I went from one to the other as much as I could, but with my long hair there were some that didn’t want me. S: You know there was a standard look, even in those days, I mean, no short hair, not long hair where it’s in-between, hanging over your ears, you know … JWB: Business-like. S: Business-like, but a little bit longer for the ‘70s, and stuff like that. Usually a big bushy mustache JWB: Oh yeah, mustaches were required, and I had one. S: Big, bushy, bushy, yes, and you’d just go and hang around with your buddies. Then you’d go to the Boot Camp until Boot Camp got raided enough times and became a private club, then you’d bring your own alcohol and then you’d spend all the times you wanted to in the bathtubs or whatever you were doing and … you know it was just like one big party after another and everybody gets to know you because you’re around enough so. You know, it was like one big “small family.” JWB: Yeah, oh I remember. S: And of course, nobody’s asking you from another bar to come someplace ‘cause they, most of ‘em don’t even know what’s going. So … but on the San Francisco level I was known for having brought the title back, whatever that title was, to San Francisco. JWB: Of course, IML really kind of got shot in the foot the next year, because it went off to Australia to someone that no one in Australia had ever heard of before or ever heard of again after. And so, they had something to build on with you, because your community gave it some meaning. S: Right, right. And there was a big leather community in those days, that was like, I don’t know how many bars south of Market, I can’t even name them all. JWB: Well, ’78 is the year we point to as the “great year” for South of Market, I think there are 31 bars in the South of Market and nearby Tenderloin in ’78. Well, there weren’t that many fewer in ’77. ’77, Trench was there, Watering Hole was there, Black & Blue closed that year … and that’s just the ones that were not facing Folsom. Oh, and Boot Camp was still a bar in ’77. And it was not on Folsom. And then there just weren’t any storefronts on Folsom that weren’t bars. S: But you’d go into the bars, and even if you knew there were seventeen of ‘em you’d walk in, because everyone went constantly. And you’d just hang around with your friends. You knew the bartenders, everybody knew the bartenders. It was kind of like at “Cheers” in a leather sense. JWB: Yeah, except of course the people at Cheers go to their one bar, and we would go to our, the six bars … there might be a bar you’d just never go to: Ramrod, for me it was the Ramrod for a long time. I’d never go in there. S: Right. Or the Blue & Gold in the Tenderloin or something like that. JWB: Actually it got hard to cross Market after a while, it was just like “Why bother?” No wonder those bars all died. Um, so you went home, you were IML, did you come back the next year? S: Yes, I judged. JWB: You did judge. And, did you come back the next year? S: No, the next year I was overseas. Remember, I was commuting back and forth. JWB: But the thought … S: Actually, the thing about it was, I had actually moved out of the City in ’80, I’d moved to Texas, on a job with the oil business, and from there I started a lot of international travel. JWB: South Texas? S: I was living in Houston. But that was my home base, and most of the rest of the time I was all over the world, so I really didn’t have any time to come back. I was traveling, getting to the point where upwards of 70% of the year I was gone. JWB: And the bike was gone too, huh? S: Yeah, the bike went to my brother. JWB: Your brother? S: Mm-hm, it was kept in the family. JWB: You didn’t ask Scott? S: Oh, he knew, oh yeah. JWB: That’s, I guess that’s good. S: He used it for a number of years, so I guess it probably had about 10 years use. JWB: Do straight boys get laid more if they have bikes? S: He wasn’t straight. JWB: (laughter) Oh, okay, well that’s good, that’s fine! Okay, okay. S: Well, he didn’t know he was or not, I don’t know. That’s another story. But the bike got a lot of use. JWB: Yeah, hah, do you know who Val Martin is? Was, rather? S: Mm-hm. JWB: Do you know if he was there at all? S: I couldn’t tell you. JWB: You don’t know. S: No. JWB: Well, but, we know he was, like, the most famous leatherman on the planet at that time, if he were there I think somebody would’ve mentioned it. S: You have to understand, your sitting there getting ready for a competition, you know. You’re nervous, you’ve never been in this venue before… JWB: Nor has anyone else! S: … the world shrinks down to those twelve people and where you’re supposed to go and where you’re supposed to be, and it’s kind of like people say “Hello, how are you?” and you just say, “I’m fine, I’m fine, everything is great, now what do I do?” So, I mean, your world shrinks … JWB: So you may not be the perfect person to ask? S: The people in the audience would be better. Ask Dave __________. JWB: I don’t know who that is. S: He’s a friend of … [third person’s voice in background? “I think he’s friends with ?somebody’s name? out in San Francisco now that he lives there] … now, but I mean he was there at the original contest. JWB: Well, the reason that I ask is because legend had it that Val—‘cause no one knew there was ever going to be what it became—so the legend by ’81 - 2 - 3, was that Val would’ve won but he left the contest early. Well, as far as I can tell he never was there. S: Well, I know that there were no contestants that didn’t start and finish. JWB: Perfect. Thank you! That fixes that legend completely. Maybe you can answer, you know Harry Shattuck, right? S: I know him, yeah I know Harry. JWB: He’s not real well right now, and one can hardly trust what he says because that’s where he’s unwell. Drummer reported that he was in the contest from Denver. New York gay rag said he was in the contest from Chicago. He doesn’t remember what state he lived in. S: I don’t know. JWB: You don’t know either. S: I don’t either, no. JWB: If you ever find a way to find out, ‘cause Harry’s no help. [third voice, off-side]: I know he was in it, he was in it three times altogether. JWB: Yes, he was, he was in it, he made the cut, and that’s a bit of a joke even to him, because he knew that he wasn’t hot and everybody knew “hot” was what mattered. [third voice, off-side]: He may have been in it from Southtown Lumber Company in ’79, then he was from Gold Coast in … no, he wasn’t from Gold Coast in 1980, ‘cause Bob _________ (?) was in 1980, so Harry … (incoherent) JWB: See, the reporting Drummer says that he was from Southtown Lumber Company, which I know is Denver, but it says “Southtown Lumber Company of Chicago.” So that’s why I asked him originally, and he said, “No, I already lived in Chicago.” I said, “So you weren’t from Southtown Lumber Company.” S: There was a contestant from Chicago. JWB: Yes there was, and that’s John Whatever, the Gold Coast guy. S: Right, Gold Coast. And I don’t remember anybody else being from Chicago. [third voice, off-side]: Joseph Lopresti was in the first contest too, I think. JWB: Ah, Lopresti was in the first contest, yeah. S: I think there was somebody from Denver, officially. For some reason that seems… JWB: I’m going to let Harry be from Denver, unless I can find other substantiation of him having already moved to Chicago. Because it looks to me like he came here to do IML and that’s when he fell in love with being here, and he moved here in the next year. [third voice, off-side]: The other person who may be able to confirm that is Leon Morris. ‘Cause Leon was from Denver, he was around in 1980. JWB: Right, okay, I’ll give Leon a call, that’ll help. You know Leon, yes? Cause … what is it called, Rock Hard? Hard Rock? S: Rock Hard. JWB: Rock Hard. Does he still have it? Still there, still functioning? S: Yeah, it’s, he’s got a new manager that’s turn it around, it was having a little problem at the beginning. JWB: Okay, okay. So, you went home, first year you really are IML for your community, eventually you’re off in Texas, probably not giving much attention to what happens in Chicago in May, until when? S: I’m trying to think, I went, because I was going in and out of Texas, I actually went back somewhere in the late ’80s, probably like ’87 or somewhere, ’87 or ’88 … if I remember correctly. And it was really funny, ‘cause I came and nobody knew who I was. In fact I paid my own way and they stuck me way up in the balcony. (laughter) It’s like, I’m looking down there, way down this whole contest, it was like, “Oh yeah, okay fine, whatever.” So I was, like, on the periphery of the entire event. JWB: Well, it was only in, I think either ’88 or ’89 that they realized the winners do come back and the winners don’t ever have to pay, ever. So, if you came back in ’87 or possibly ’88 no one had had that idea yet, that you would come back after you judged. ’88 is the one they call the “10th Anniversary”, which was actually the 10th year meaning 9th Anniversary. Yeah, so it was after that year, it was because of the anniversary year that a lot of the winners came back, and that’s when they suddenly had the question, “Do we ask them for money?” And except for one famous scene involving Guy Baldwin, there’s never been a problem about the winners paying (lots of laughter in the room). S: I didn’t mind paying, I was coming there to enjoy. I came a couple other times, kind of like in cognito, until ’98. JWB: In incidental cognito, at least, huh? S: Well, for the most part, it’s amazing, you know, I don’t think attention was paid as much in those days to previous winners. It really didn’t come across that way. “Oh yeah? You’re a ‘was-he’. Let’s talk about now.” JWB: Well, like the Mr. Powerhouses who were being elected every three or four months. S: Yeah, right, “You’ve had your glory, get out, get out.” Of course, some people, like in San Francisco, really still wanted people to be doing their thing for the community and stuff like that. But for the most part, you were in and out and that was it. The reality is … JWB: I think the idea of us as a community, maybe at the time we’re talking about, only existed in San Francisco. S: That’s probably … JWB: ‘Cause I remember I went to D.C. in ’77 or ’78 and I don’t know if used the word “community” but I made a comment like the one you just made and all my friends were standing there at the bar going, “You don’t? …ah, that’s what he said. You don’t think we’re related to them, do you?” and I said, “What?” and he said, “Fags.” Whoa! S: Really? JWB: My poor little brain’s doing flips in its pan, there, yeah, I don’t think that anyone in D.C. had the idea that there could be a leather community, that would be too much like “queers.” S: Is that right? JWB: Like ordinary queers, like cocksuckers. S: Who was saying that? JWB: People in D.C. S: Like … gay people? JWB: Yeah. Gay leathermen. Yeah. S: I remember one of the managers of the old Eagle, I had a good time there, but uh … JWB: In D.C.? Yeah, I had a great time. S: It’s changed a lot. JWB: Well, a third address, and each time it’s become less exciting, I think, yeah. S: But we did, I have to say, in those days it was a really heady experience being in the leather community in San Francisco. It was really Ground Zero as, well at least we thought so, and everybody seemed to come and join us. JWB: I think that because of the Life article in the ’60s, ’64, June of ’64, actually—this is another “Joseph’s Birthday” thing—it actually, that magazine actually shipped on my birthday in 1964! Which is also the day I graduated from high school. That magazine told the world, outside world, that there were butch queer men by having a picture of the Toolbox mural and Chuck and Bill and Mike all floating around in front of it in their leather jackets saying, “Yeah, we are homosexuals.” But the important thing is it told similarly-inclined guys all over the country, there’s at least this one place. And they had stuff about Chicago there, about New York, about Florida; but none of it except San Francisco mentioned leathermen or the possibility of being butch and gay. It was only San Francisco defined as the place where that was possible. So that made it Ground Zero. S: Well, you know, that’s the concept right now, you know, leather is like a fetish thing that has diversified and everything, but essentially defined masculinity. It separated you from the drag queens or the effeminate young men or the old queens that were doing whatever they were doing in their flocked-wallpaper bars and everything like this. This was like, “We are going to be …”, and so, you know, being men was really celebrated almost to an excess. JWB: When did you get to San Francisco? S: ’77. JWB: So that was, you’d just arrived there when you were doing this, like, tourism of the bars with Marcus and friends. S: Right, I mean within days JWB: Yeah, well that’s really kind of cool because I interviewed Marcus fifteen years ago for the first time and he talked about when he arrived in San Francisco, he arrived there thinking, you know, “How do you get to know people in a town that’s already alive and already running?” He had been before, like, just watched the gay community develop and stepped in and be part of it. Well, he went to … wherever … maybe to the Why Not, something like that, and ran into some people; and the moment they heard he was from out of town they said, “Okay, well, you’re going to have to leave that sweater,” he was wearing a lemon-yellow mohair sweater. “You’re going to have to leave that sweater in the trunk of the car, but we’re gonna take you out.” And starting that night, which was the first night he went out in San Francisco, he had this group of people who took him from bar to bar, you know. And so he was passing on that tradition when you came along. S: Everybody joined in, was pulled into the pile, and just had a really good time whether or not it was for, whatever, ulterior motives or not; but people were very friendly. JWB: Did you know Baldwin? S: No. JWB: He was working at The Brig about the same time. But he didn’t, he was … he was very skinny, he didn’t have a muscle, and he was a bottom, and his voice was still way up there. (laughter in the background) He was out about being a bottom. S: But you were allowed to in those days. JWB: Yeah, it was not an issue, not an issue. S: Again, if he was skinny, that just goes with the style of the day, you know. Slim bodies were in, you know, just a little bit of definition was fine, and everybody was … JWB: Ah, he didn’t have any definition. Rail. He was like a rail. Yeah. David Britain gave him the idea of actually, like, lifting weights or something. But it took years to talk Guy into it. And there never would’ve been the Guy Baldwin we know without it, mind you. S: Is that good or bad? JWB: Um, I don’t know if that is good or bad, I think that is bad, ‘cause look where it’s left Guy, he’s the least happy human I know. And I’ve gotta tell you, when I knew him in the late ‘70s, he was certainly the happiest pig in San Francisco. S: Well, that’s what I say, you know, looking at IML today versus in those days, you know, there was a joy of living and celebrating your sexuality, and just enjoying life, Period. You know, and so there wasn’t all this “Are my muscles big enough?”, “Am I doing enough community service?”, “Am I political enough or am I doing this, have I raised enough money?” “Am I a bigger title-holder than you?” It was just, like, “You’re cute, wanna fuck?” “You’re hot, let’s do it.” Or just … JWB: So, Black & Blue Party was, like, your favorite part of the weekend? S: Yeah, it was great! You’d zip down there, and you’d have … you know, it was terrible having people wait for you to finish bartending, though. JWB: For what? S: Well, ‘cause it’s so late, you know, and there sitting around there with the crowd and stuff, you know what it’s like when your a bartender. Then you’d run off from there right to the bath house and do your thing and do whatever, back at the bar or whatever. But everything was concentrated, it was sexually motivated. Men having sex with men and enjoying it. Everything else was extraneous: you got enough money for rent, you got enough money to eat, and the rest of the time was party your ass off. JWB: Yeah, well, let’s see, yeah, that’s ’77, Chuck Arnett and Bill were living by Buena Vista Park, they had moved there and rented the apartment because it was the only apartment there from which you could see behind the trees and watch the orgy going on! Yeah, they were real clear about priorities. S: Buena Vista, you used to be able to drive your motorcycles up there. JWB: Yeah, you could take your motorcycle right behind the row of bushes there and you’d really get my attention then. S: I could tell you some stories about Buena Vista, but that’s okay, and the motorcycle that was IML. JWB: So that IML motorcycle did go visiting behind the bushes at the top of Buena Vista? S: Well, at least it took me to the bushes. JWB: And that was arriving in style. S: You better believe it. And it was okay to have a 500 in those days, you didn’t have to have the Harley “Big Boy” or something like that. JWB: Right, actually it was very okay to have almost any motorcycle in those days, as long as it wasn’t too flashy. I do remember, flashy motorcycle would’ve been, like, overdone biceps, its like, what is that about? S: Does it make your dick any bigger? JWB: Exactly! Um, so you went off to Houston, time passes, you’re [End Side One] S: [Begin Side Two] … in Texas, been there off and on, I was really a resident, but then I moved to Austin with him because he was getting sick. So, we basically took care of him, and my whole year … JWB: He was already in Austin, you mean? S: We moved from Houston to sort of semi-retire up to Austin, and my last year was intense, 100% care-giver, hospital rounds, the whole nine yards which everybody knows about those things, yeah. And after his demise, I started taking little trips to San Francisco and I ended up running into an old friend of mine who I’d known back in the ’70s along with Marcus and everybody and I got a room … I shared his apartment with him on a part-time basis, keeping my house in Texas … and slowly insinuated myself back into what was a reviving lifestyle that I could see and feel comfortable with. And by ’98 I decided “I’ve gotta come back,” and that’s what I did. And it was just during that period of time from like ’96 up until ’98 that the idea of, “Hey, you know, I was an IML, I still am one and I’m still here,” that came into it, and it was time to do community service. And it was like, “Okay, I don’t need to be IML to do it, but I as David Kloss, a past IML is doing community service.” And that’s where I sort of got back into the whole thing with San Francisco. And it was kind of like coming back because San Francisco’s leather community still, even though it’s smaller, is still pretty cohesive. And it was very interesting to see people’s reactions because, you know, I would never really say, “I was IML 1979,” other people would say, “Oh, this is David Kloss, he was IML ’79.” JWB: “He’s still alive!” S: Yeah, I know, “Hey, wow, you’re still here!” And then I started going to the IMLs, and then ’98 they brought me back for judging, and … [third voice, off-side]: I think it was’96 when you were actually introduced, because I remember you were the only one I’d ever met, and you mentioned the [unintelligible?] earlier, they introduced you as the ??? JWB: They introduced him as what? [third voice, off-side]: He was wearing his Australian jacket, ‘cause I remember meeting you backstage … JWB: Well, I remember how cool you look in it, too. S: But it was, it was kind of nice, except for it was kind of also, ’98 was my realization that I am part of an old style not still around, you know. It’s kind of … when people start coming up to me, saying, “Wow, I was in fifth grade when you won,” and stuff like that it’s like,[lots of noisy laughter and talk about ages, grade levels] all of a sudden, its your first realization of a continuity of a tradition. JWB: Isn’t it amazing though? I mean, we couldn’t have had a picture of that in ’77 in San Francisco. I mean, you couldn’t see past the next crotch anyway, but it wouldn’t have made any sense because there was nothing to look back on. S: Because everything was going forward JWB: It was choppy and separate and different and everything was about tomorrow and tomorrow and next weekend. S: Bigger party, bigger dick, bigger whatever. JWB: Exactly. And then, we reached the point in the late ’90s where we could see, it wasn’t all choppy and separate, it was all headed to where it was going all along. I loved it when you reappeared. Not, I mean I didn’t know you, it wasn’t about it being you, it was about that continuity having a kind of—I hate to reduce you to it, but—a symbol, you know. S: Right. JWB: Something that was emblematic of it lasting, and the very IML title has something of that in it, because it’s coming up on twenty-five years, you know. S: Well, you a couple of generations almost, in there. JWB: Well, we’ve had contestants who were, what do you suppose was the youngest, we’ve had a 21, right? A 24 a few years ago. [third voice, off-side]: 24 this year, the youngest to win were 23, both Patrick Toner and Colt Thomas. JWB: Wasn’t Mark Ryan also 23? S: So, it’s funny actually, because I knew Colt in Texas, and he asked me, he said he was going to do this do that, and what did I think, and this was my first attempt or involvement in trying to coach someone. You know, what to do, what to expect, all this kind of thing, of course it was all still semi-fresh in my brain in those days, but it was kind of nice to see somebody you knew from a different environment go on and achieve that goal. JWB: He did it, magnificently, too. S: So there were little pieces of my life that were connected with it, sort of in an off-handed way … JWB: Well, there you were being a leatherman and no matter what, no matter how much you move around, that’s a fairly small world. S: It really is. But you know, one of the things for me right now is that, when people say, “You were there, you did this, you did that, you’ve been around,” still it’s amazing for me. It’s nice to have people say that but I really can’t quite figure out how I’m supposed to respond to this. It’s like, “Thank you”, but what do you say? JWB: It’s really about all you can do. S: “Let the party begin,” because what I really like right now is the fact that people are starting to get back into that party idea … in a different point of view JWB: Well, I wouldn’t mind if it were way like that again, but you see if it were way like that again I wouldn’t be invited at this stage in my life. I remember working the door at the Meat Rack in Los Angeles once, for a few weeks, and then about a year ago I ran into somebody I rejected at the door and he said, “ I know why; my waist was already like 35 inches,” and I said, “No, you’re right, I couldn’t have let you in with that.” S: There’s still those, those concepts are still there, even more so right now. JWB: It wasn’t, it didn’t feel like a problem then, it’s like there were plenty of places for everyone to go, it’s just I happen to be in charge of the door where that doesn’t go. S: You have your establishment to think of, your reputation, you want people to have a good time. JWB: Yes, yes, besides once I get off my shift I might actually run into him in there if I let him in, that’s the way they trained the doormen: “Don’t let anyone in unless you would be glad to run into them when you get off your shift.” Oh, yeah, none of those little guys, none of those feminine guys, no fat guys, certainly no women! So, but now IML is full of women, everywhere you look, and heterosexual contestants now. S: It takes a little … I’m trying to be contemporary, I realize that there’s reasons for these changes, I’m still kind of set in the old ways, but in some ways I have that mellowing concept within my mind that, “Well, okay, you can’t always live in the past, and let’s make the most of what’s happening.” Doesn’t mean I have to sleep with anybody I don’t want to. JWB: No, that, that will never change. S: Because I don’t want to be one of those people who say, “Yes I did have a good time in the old days and there’s nothing like the old days, nothing will ever be the same.” Because it’s the “old days” for everybody right now. And there’s a lot of enthusiasm now. JWB: Yeah, this weekend is going to be, for somebody in Chicago, the day they discovered leather. It’ll happen. And 20 years from now we may run into that person, he may be the 40th IML! S: But, you know, one of the things that my “resurgence”, so to speak, in the IML, it’s brought the idea, because when you go through life you never picture yourself as really changing or aging. It kind of brings a mirror up … JWB: Well, in this case it couldn’t have been an unfortunate circumstance, you know, you got much better. S: Oh, no, but you’re older, and all of a sudden your confronted with the fact that you’re older. Which is nice, but your interaction with people is a little bit different, it kind of forces you to realize that you have to be a little more mature. JWB: Did you think that you were the sexiest guy in the contest? S: No. JWB: Did you think Durk was? S: Yes, one of the sexiest. Yeah, I really did, I really had no idea that I would win, not even in San Francisco. JWB: You mean The Brig contest, you didn’t expect to win that one? S: No. JWB: Well, everybody in San Francisco that I’ve talked to was real clear about the fact that you would win that one. ‘Cause you were the nicest person up there, I’ve heard several of the other Brig contestants as “stuck on themselves.” And you weren’t, that was your edge there and I bet that was your edge in Chicago. S: I have a feeling personally that that’s what helped out. JWB: I think it helped a lot. Certainly Durk was already stuck on Durk, and if he hadn’t been Dom would’ve seen to it that he got that way on his way into this contest. And Harry didn’t really think of winning, he came to get laid and he got laid a lot, and I think he’d have been really unhappy if he’d won. You were like one of the few people in the whole lot who were just there. “I’m just here, I’m just doing what you tell me to do.” S: “And I’m going to enjoy it,” and that’s what it is, it’s enjoyment for being here and that’s what I did. JWB: I think that would be very attractive to the judges. S: Obviously it was! JWB: Well, and there could have been other factors that neither of us are thinking of, but I think that could have been a really good one for you. S: Well, I had a good smile in those days, it was kind of nice. I was told afterwards that one of the deciding moments was the way that I kind of smiled genuinely at the audience and everything else like that was sort of, you know, did whatever I did. Just being me. JWB: So now you’re a star. S: I don’t feel like one. I just feel like somebody who’s been around a long time, and … JWB: Let’s check: is he a star? S: (laughter) JWB: So we got a thumbs-up, a yes, and a “ehh”. S: Well the idea is, who’s the “ehh”? (laughter) No, the only nice thing that I take about that is, I’m flattered. But it also gets <??> so I can go back to my old self, it gets me laid a lot! JWB: Well, anything that gets you laid a lot is a good thing. S: It’s a good thing! I mean, I don’t want to be leader of the pack, I will do my part in helping and doing whatever I need to. Being IML is who I am, I’m David Kloss. And if it’s just one of those things in my life that helps out, and … also if it does help other people, that’s fine too. But other than that, it’s part of the tradition which I do value and honor. JWB: Well, it has become a very important tradition. It’s been, the leather community nationally, the gay male leather community has actually pretty much built its national backbone around IML, because IML was the one thing that was there, you could count on, will still be there next year. Even the Gold Coast, which lasted thirty-six years, eventually went away. S: Right, bars come and go, even if they’re there “forever”, as things change. JWB: Yeah, the New York Eagle was there forever; gone now. S: It’s interesting, and kind of an honor to be part of a tradition, and as I said, I’m still adjusting to my “new position”, so to speak. It’s like, “Wow! You’re still here!” JWB: Well, but you were just a little kid when you were IML … S: 29. JWB: Yeah, but, I mean anyone who was 29 then was a lot younger than anyone who’s 29 on this … even I felt like a little kid in 1979. S: You were. We were kids at a great big party where party favors were just … JWB: … and you could run as far as you wanted and you never came to the edge of the playground! S: Exactly! Exactly what it was, that’s a good way to describe it. JWB: Yeah I loved it, I really loved it. S: That’s the part that, there were no boundaries, there was nobody that said you had to stop. There was no concept of the idea that, you know, all of a sudden you were freed to do and be and act the way you wanted to; it was like recess with no monitor! With the idea that you’d have to go back to class, either. JWB: Well, when you are on recess I guess you know the bell is going to ring, but… S: There was no bell. JWB: There was no bell! S: Well, there was a bell, we just didn’t know about it. JWB: That’s what I’m saying: I guess you know, but you don’t think about it. And neither did we. The bell came, a few years later. S: You could always be a bartender, if worse came to worst. JWB: Yeah, there’s always a way to get by, and to keep your invitation current. S: It’s kind of good, people have taken responsible action. I really, one thing that I’d like to see people do a little bit more of is contributing. San Francisco has a big idea of commitment to the community. Everything, almost everything is a fund raiser, almost to the point of … JWB: Yeah it does get tiring after a while. S: … tiring after a while, but at the same time there’s a feeling that if somebody has a problem you can, you know, your friend gets in trouble, no matter how much difficulty it is, you go “Whatever, I’ll go help.” And that’s still there. JWB: And if you can’t, you could pick up the phone and find someone who will. That’s still, I think, in the leather community. It’s San Francisco, more than anything, and it’s leather other places more than other things in those other places. But San Francisco, largely because—and I know I’ve mentioned it before—largely because of all those years of the Interclub Fund, where we only had two fund raisers a year, but during those fund raisers we said all the stuff that you would never say out loud any other time of the year, about loving your brothers, and setting aside something for the trouble they may one day face, and all that stuff. The rest of the year, that would just make your dick go soft! S: We were loving our brothers! JWB: Yeah, we were actually taking care of that loving, rather than setting aside money for it. [third voice, off-side]: You know the thing that’s different about San Francisco than anyplace else, though, as far as the title holders go, as far as raising money, is that all of them are obligated, in the various titles, they all have contractual community responsibilities that, you know, it’s not just “walk-in-walk-out” with the title, now they have to do X-number of fund raisers, which still most of the rest of the country doesn’t have. S: And it’s surprising how much just simple little fund raisers can raise. $2,000 - $3,000 in just a “bar night”. People just open up there wallets and give. JWB: You can do that here, though. [third voice, off-side]: Every weekend. JWB: Oh yeah, yeah, at one point there in San Francisco I was emceeing two or three fund raisers a week, almost always part of the Sunday afternoon thing at the Eagle and usually something in the Castro—Edge, whatever, later Daddies—and something at some other South of Market place. And I would look out in the crowd three times a week and see the same people standing there with their wallets out. S: (laughter) I know! “Yeah, whatever, here, have a check!” They have a couple of drinks, everybody gets all happy and they just give away their money. But I would say probably last year, the leather community on its own was probably responsible for funneling about $400,000 back into the city of San Francisco with charity. Now, that’s pretty impressive. Mostly volunteer. JWB: Well, the other root, taproot, of all this was the leather communities huge effort, which really was started in San Francisco and then spread to L.A., to be acceptable in the world, so we did Toys for Tots. We did it to death! S: Right. And then when AIDS came along, we were the first ones to really … JWB: Yeah, well, because already had the systems in place: we knew what an emcee was, we knew how to raise money, we knew how to publicize the fact that you got this many dollars, all that stuff was already in place. The rest of the gay community, if you’d talk to them about money they’d go, “But I’m not a hustler.” S: Marcus says, “Once you’re a title holder in San Francisco, you’re a bottom to the community.” It’s true, it’s true, so that’s good. And I like that part, I like that aspect of healing, that the group that I identify with has got very generous wallets and hearts when it comes to people that need something. JWB: I never understood where all that money comes from, because I know … S: A lot of these people don’t have that money! JWB: Right! I can tell you this: this institution [Leather Archives & Museum] is still largely supported by people who are on disability. Our biggest personal donors are all on disability. It’s been that way since I got here. My friend Leroy Dysart (sp?) who’s been on disability his whole life started tithing—he was born with a brain defect; doesn’t stop him from enjoying his leathersex, but it does stop him from being able to stay all day at a job—he started tithing his disability checks and, because of some back payments, already in the first year I was here he became the largest donor in the history of the museum, and remains so until this year. Just barely over a year ago. Then Roger Clarise (sp?), who happens to live in San Francisco, wrote one check that wiped out Leroy! S: Well, it’s like when we kick off the bare-chest calendar the first night, we always do a fund raiser, a “pass the hat” so to speak, for the Leather Archives and Museum; and last year, just from people pulling out their wallets with no auctions, no nothing, it was like $1,200 in the bar. JWB: Not a problem! S: Not a problem! JWB: I have what I need, do you have things you need to say that we haven’t talked about? S: I don’t think so. JWB: I think I really got it, the flavor of all of that and what it was about you, and what it’s been to you. [third voice, off side]: The other one mystery about you for years, in many programs and references your name is spelled, instead of a double “s” at the end, with a double “f”. S: Oh! A double “f”? JWB: But that was John _____’s fault. John ______ spelled it with two “f”s in like, um, Drummer number … S: In the first Drummer I was in, it was with an “e” at the end. JWB: Yeah, “se”, right. But it became “f”s, and once ________ made the mistake of it being “f”s, then it was in the ?B.A.R.? and in several issues of Drummer and it a couple of Halsted publications. And in point of fact, when I had to do something at Drummer about the Mr. Drummers and IMLs in 1990, I went to Tony and said, “This first IML, what’s his name? I got ‘Kloff’, I got ‘Kloss’, I got ‘Klose’.” I was using “Klose”, the one with the “e” on the end. And Tony said, “I don’t think it matters, no one where he is.” S: (laughter) JWB: S: |
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